Abigail, one practical test I would add is whether the people closest to a man can disagree with him without first having to manage his ego. A good man can hear “you hurt me,” “I see this differently,” or “I need something else from you” without turning another person’s honesty into disrespect or disloyalty. Character becomes especially visible in how much room our love leaves for someone else to remain fully themselves. I’m grateful you and Joe made the question concrete enough to examine inside an actual marriage rather than leaving masculinity as an abstract ideal.
Rev, this is the addition to the chat we needed ❤️ I agree completely. Plus, Joe and I love a chat we can disagree on 😉 Thank you for this generous input 💫
HI Abigail! Thank you for writing! I have two responses to this - the first is to observe that it's easy to spot a wife-hater because those men tend to be women-haters, in general, no platonic relationships with women, no work friends who are women, distrust or disdain for their sisters, etc. The mom is even seen as some sort of filial obligation, outside of a genuine curiosity in her as a woman or her interior life. My second is to share that my mother--who is 95 years old, has had her share of romantic and sexual surprises, even considering her era, is now 20 years widowed and suffering from just a small amount of memory and cognition loss--sometime over the last six months, has become absolutely fixated on the movie The Intern with Robert DeNiro. She LOVES that character, and of course it's easy to see why--he really is the character who lifts others up with his own unique combination of humility, strength, and manners. In the movie, he's presented as the preferable alternative to the screen-addicted, sloppy-clothes-wearing, lives-in-a-basement millennial. He carries a briefcase, always tucks in his shirt, always wears a tie, and always carries a fresh handkerchief for any woman who might start to cry and need it. He's part caricature of a certain era of "charming white man," and part genuinely good person. What's fascinating to me, though, is how absolutely smitten my mother is. By how much these external markers of what makes a "good" man are what she is still clinging to, even at the end of her life, even as some men that, outwardly, might have fulfilled these roles might also have let her down in enormous ways. Sending love!
Wow yes thank you for keeping this convo going in such a rich way. Useful information and I’m going to be thinking of your mom’s infatuation all night. We had the Swiss Family Robinson on this morning and I’ve been thinking of my grandpa and the archetypes of that era. My grandma was a Tom Selleck fan.
Very sweet! My husband talks about going to the office and all the guys hating on their wives and scheduling extra business trips. He hates it. He said his coworker pointed out to him the other day that she noticed he was different. She could tell he loved his wife and family. What an anomaly!
Gosh it pains me to know this is so prevalent that the anomaly is the one with happiness and love. My husband also confused his colleagues about how often he tries to get out of work trips that they all enjoy. He just likes to be home!
Phil’s wife here. We agreed a good man is someone who massages my feet…and maybe a few other adjectives but mostly massages my feet.
No but in all seriousness someone who is caring, loving, supportive and there in the bad times. Luckily for me someone very similar to Philip! Although we agreed we can improve on it so we will be working on producing a Philip 2.0 with our son!
Abigail, one practical test I would add is whether the people closest to a man can disagree with him without first having to manage his ego. A good man can hear “you hurt me,” “I see this differently,” or “I need something else from you” without turning another person’s honesty into disrespect or disloyalty. Character becomes especially visible in how much room our love leaves for someone else to remain fully themselves. I’m grateful you and Joe made the question concrete enough to examine inside an actual marriage rather than leaving masculinity as an abstract ideal.
Rev, this is the addition to the chat we needed ❤️ I agree completely. Plus, Joe and I love a chat we can disagree on 😉 Thank you for this generous input 💫
HI Abigail! Thank you for writing! I have two responses to this - the first is to observe that it's easy to spot a wife-hater because those men tend to be women-haters, in general, no platonic relationships with women, no work friends who are women, distrust or disdain for their sisters, etc. The mom is even seen as some sort of filial obligation, outside of a genuine curiosity in her as a woman or her interior life. My second is to share that my mother--who is 95 years old, has had her share of romantic and sexual surprises, even considering her era, is now 20 years widowed and suffering from just a small amount of memory and cognition loss--sometime over the last six months, has become absolutely fixated on the movie The Intern with Robert DeNiro. She LOVES that character, and of course it's easy to see why--he really is the character who lifts others up with his own unique combination of humility, strength, and manners. In the movie, he's presented as the preferable alternative to the screen-addicted, sloppy-clothes-wearing, lives-in-a-basement millennial. He carries a briefcase, always tucks in his shirt, always wears a tie, and always carries a fresh handkerchief for any woman who might start to cry and need it. He's part caricature of a certain era of "charming white man," and part genuinely good person. What's fascinating to me, though, is how absolutely smitten my mother is. By how much these external markers of what makes a "good" man are what she is still clinging to, even at the end of her life, even as some men that, outwardly, might have fulfilled these roles might also have let her down in enormous ways. Sending love!
Wow yes thank you for keeping this convo going in such a rich way. Useful information and I’m going to be thinking of your mom’s infatuation all night. We had the Swiss Family Robinson on this morning and I’ve been thinking of my grandpa and the archetypes of that era. My grandma was a Tom Selleck fan.
Very sweet! My husband talks about going to the office and all the guys hating on their wives and scheduling extra business trips. He hates it. He said his coworker pointed out to him the other day that she noticed he was different. She could tell he loved his wife and family. What an anomaly!
Gosh it pains me to know this is so prevalent that the anomaly is the one with happiness and love. My husband also confused his colleagues about how often he tries to get out of work trips that they all enjoy. He just likes to be home!
Ok so now I know the answer when my wife asks “what do you want to talk about tonight?”. I’ll be back…just forwarded the article to her.
Okkk I can’t wait to hear the debrief! Keep the convo rolling 😍
Phil’s wife here. We agreed a good man is someone who massages my feet…and maybe a few other adjectives but mostly massages my feet.
No but in all seriousness someone who is caring, loving, supportive and there in the bad times. Luckily for me someone very similar to Philip! Although we agreed we can improve on it so we will be working on producing a Philip 2.0 with our son!
This made me smile! I can see we have similar feelings about foot massages and child rearing 🥹