This week’s Happy Endings is a frank conversation between my husband and I on sex after kids - navigating the madonna-whore complex, maintaining passion, and postpartum bodies.
THE QUESTION MEN ARE ASKING
Abby: So, babe, I’m thinking about writing a post titled, “My husband on ‘how to view the mother of your children as a whore’.” Thoughts?
Joe: I suppose that is something I do endorse.
Abby: It’s surprised me how consistently your/our male friends have asked you about your sex life after kids. I want to know your advice for all my friends’ husbands. There are a lot of negative stories out there, and I imagine it freaks some people out. How would you describe our postpartum sex? How do you think it’s been overall?
Joe: Yeah, good. (READER NOTE: He’s British. This is high praise.)
I’ve told our friends that if it’s a priority, make it a priority.
Abby: It won’t happen as effortlessly, but doesn’t mean it can’t? Right?
MAN & BEAST THEORY
Joe: Yeah. You have to be thinking about it. Even when you have other things getting in the way of having sex… keep thinking about having sex with your wife.
Abby: Yea. There’s a fucking load more things to get done, but you can still find plenty of time to do each other so long as you both want.
Joe: Yeah, it sucks that we often can only have sex at later times. (READER NOTE: we used to enjoy morning sex.) But the benefit is that I can put more thought into this ‘thinking’. Sort of like a sexual Disney imagineer, planning my sex life theme park.
Abby: Thinking! Wanting! Two, sometimes competing, aspects of humanity… A perfect transition into your central theory… Explain, please, your theory of human sexuality as it relates to the mother-whore complex, and the trap hetero couples fall into post children.
Joe: The key to a good relationship is seeing your wife as both the perfect object of your eternal love and then losing yourself in passion and forgetting that to the point you see her as a free use disposable slut. In embracing that contradiction, you return to reality with your love replenished.
Abby: 🥰romance 😌
Joe: You need to be both man and animal. Werewolf, jekly and hyde, vampires… There are many mythological precedents. It’s the same as food. We eat - all animals eat - but we cook and prepare our food. Your relationship operates in the same way. You need to be the animal, but also elevate sex to a more human place as well.
Too much human is bad and too much animal is bad.
PEDESTAL & DIRT THEORY
Abby: So, men who lose interest in their wives, as mothers or otherwise, have lost their animal?
Joe: Yeh kind of. They want their wife to be something that’s impossible, so they try and become something that’s impossible to be.
Basically, to be all like ‘my wife is angel’ without the depravity, you then start to mirror that and lose touch with your true self. They put their wives on a pedestal, which is great and I like to do that with you, but that needs to be balanced by rolling in the dirt - you have to put your wife on a pedestal, but also drag her off it and roll in the dirt with her too now and again.
Abby: You’re intentionally integrating these archetypes to avoid this mental schism that self-sabotages sexual satisfaction. It’s a very you theory. It reminds me of your philosophizing on Keats’ ‘chaser’ stupidity in our Joycian love letters.
So back to the madonna-whore trap and the men who lose interest in the mother of their children... How is this happening, practically? What are the signs?
Joe: Men and women can both be stupid, but they’re stupid in very different ways. Men’s stupidity is all about them ‘thinking they can get away with stuff’ whereas women’s stupidity is ‘wanting stuff they can’t have’.
Abby: Go on…
Joe: I think guys lose interest in their wives because they don’t tell the wife when she has too high expectations, and then instead try and ‘get away with’ not meeting them. So rather than having a set of mutually understood and agreed-upon expectations and then meeting them, the guy gets into the habit of not really caring.
Abby: Interesting. A communication disconnect before the sexual disconnect. In the postpartum period, there are many moments for this exact problem to pervade: new tasks to keep up with, new visions of ‘right and wrong.’ It requires a lot of communication. And not just chat and transparency. People can struggle even to know themselves, then to be honest with themself, to then be honest with their partner about what their needs, expectations, etc.
Joe: Yeh. Colin1 was like this. A lot. And obviously he cheated on his missus. A lot.
FANTASY & DESIRE THEORY
Abby: You’ve seen a lot of cheaters huh. What’s the common thread?
Joe: Stupidity, ultimately. (See above) They think they can get away with stuff. And that getting away with it makes it ok.
Abby: So, for those who’ve overcome - or at least are aware of their stupidity - and desire to retain their animal-human balance to stay in lust - what are your practical tips to desire you misses when she has your babies?
Joe: Practical tips…
Make your wife the object of your fantasies, and use your imagination.
So rather than fantasizing about, I dunno, whatever, or whoever else, fantasize about your wife and the scenarios you would like with her.
Abby: Do you think it’s that easy then? Why do I feel like the average man would laugh?
Joe: I dunno if they would. Maybe. But, this point about fantasies to overcome the whole mother whore dichotomy thing through the man/beast jekyll/hyde thing… It makes things sexier.
Abby: I’m listening…
Joe: It adds a sort of taboo element to sex. You know what I mean? There’s an inherent transgression to the mother being a whore.
Abby: I see. So, contrary to the idea that your sex life might erode, you’re saying there’s this new hot element to our sex life that didn’t exist before babies.
Joe: Not a new thing, as the whole Freudian nature of it has been there all along. More just that your identity has shifted to take on the mother role. The mother whore complex is losing interest in your wife because you start to see her as too pure, and then also not seeing women you do sleep with as worthy of love. I suppose what I am saying is actually the more we can play around with that dichotomy and be subversive with it, the more I love you. Which, I guess, makes me a well adjusted husband.
THE INVITING POSTPARTUM BODY
Abby: lol. Well, I certainly think so. And I love you more than ever, too.
So speaking of things that, contrary to convention, make sex sexier as parents, I want to hear about your perspective on postpartum bodies… How have the physical changes of motherhood on my body affected our sex life?
Joe: Such as?
Abby: Huge boobs with stretch marks. Milky fountains. Large nipple. Looser tum skin. Vulva changes??
Joe: Ehhhh. I was thinking about this the other day (amongst other things) while you were gone. This can be a positive really.
Abby: What? Tell me everything.
Joe: I was thinking how your body is less tense and more relaxed. Like when we were in Minneapolis and had [impromptu anal]. I was like… [*wolf noises*] Then when we were looking in our [sex] box… I noticed our large purple plug, and I was thinking ‘oh we could have sex with that inside Abby’s butt.’ And there you have it - an advantage of motherly body changes. You can take advantage of that relaxin (hormone).
Abby: To me, a relaxed body is super sexy, confident, inviting, etc. A tense body is unwelcoming, timid, and naive. You’re agreeing, I take it?
Joe: Well, like the other day when I said I really enjoyed the sex, and you were like ‘why?’ and I said it was sloppy and inviting. So, yeah.
It’s like how I’ve taken to making you a honey and ginger tea before a blowjob because I can feel your mouth is relaxed. And when I give you a neck and jaw massage… It genuinely feels better.
Abby: Ah, ditto. I’m hearing a rebranding of consent as ‘invitation.’
Joe: The only negative of postpartum body is the skinniness when you were breastfeeding Henry. Like that was borderline a bit too far. You were crazy thin at one point.
Abby: I think it was because my body didn’t heal well with Henry. Then, those two bedridden weeks with Louis kept me plump for you. And we’re back to the beginning. Life with kids has a lot of new challenges, responsibilities, and so long as you’re open to learning together, discussing expectations, being open (like it might’ve felt unreasonable to stay in bed for two weeks as my midwives suggested, but look at the pay off), and prioritizing pleasure…. Your sex life can be ‘good’ to a Brit, or ‘awesome’ to a Minnesotan. And to both of us, love can be better than ever.
Joe: Yeh.
And then we kissed.
Abby: My love, thank you. I have one last question - do you mind if I share this on Substack?
Joe: Yeah, on the condition that you include this image of L'Estasi di Santa Teresa - Gian Lorenzo Bernini 1647–1652.
Abby: As you wish.
names changed, duh
This is so refreshing (and hot!) to read. It’s so true - After mothering all day, I’m just longing to be a whore.
We’ve moved on to the next life chapter, kids old enough to be more independent and requiring less direct care. As Mom and Dad we have so much more energy, and time to ourselves, and we just love spending time together. All the chapters seem to be better than the last.